You can’t go wrong with a table of old guys.
That’s been a rule of thumb of mine as a reporter when I’m entering a political venue and seeking a healthy amount of color for a story about a candidate or issue du jour.
Spot a table of retired gray gentlemen conversing quietly amongst themselves and the there’s a strong likelihood they’ll serve up a killer quote.
So as I walked into American Legion Post #166 in Goose Creek, South Carolina Saturday morning to cover Nancy Mace’s U.S. Senate announcement, I quickly scanned the room and settled on approaching two men who later identified themselves as John Stauffer and Tony Piscatella.
In addition to covering Mace’s kick-off for a couple magazines, I wanted to take the pulse of the room of Berkeley County Republicans on the recent Rand Paul-Chris Christie spat.
What I found is a range of quiet displeasure to outright anger towards Sen. Lindsey Graham and not much love for Gov. Christie.
Those who show up for breakfast Saturday morning in Berkeley County represent only a small sliver of select Republicans, but if nothing else, their opinions offer a timely example of the anti-establishment fervor that continues to run through the party.
Stauffer and Piscatella are just the type of guys who end up in stories of reporters’ like mine. Straight-forward, detailed, to-the-point and emphatic. My rule about approaching old guys’ proved true again.
Catanese: What do you think of Lindsey Graham?
Stauffer: Get rid of him.
Catanese: Why’s that?
Stauffer: Lindsey Graham is a good conservative 85 percent of the time. Fifteen percent of the time he’s a terrible conservative, but that 15 percent overrides everything else.
Catanese: Eighty-five percent’s not good enough?
Stauffer: Not when you pick the subjects that you do that are in the 15 percent.
Piscatella: Can I start with Sotomayor and Kagan?
Catanese: So judges are a big issue.
Piscatella: When you’re on the Judiciary Subcommittee that he’s on, it only takes one minority vote to stop a nominee. He could’ve stopped both of those nominations. What did he say? ”The man won the election, he deserves to have his choice.” This is somebody who’s going to be on the court for life.
Catanese: So you believe each party should be able to fight those nominations?
Piscatella: Absolutely. You absolutely fight those nominations until you get back to somebody more middle of the road. Both of those picks are far left.
Catanese: So judges, immigration, are there any other issues?
Stauffer: Cap and trade.
Catanese: Cap and trade. He hasn’t talked about that recently. But fair point, that he was for that.
I then spoke with Stauffer and Piscatella about how difficult it would be to defeat Graham if he had three or more primary challengers and they agreed that settling on one “horse” would be the only way to have a shot at victory. They conceded Graham’s financial advantage and his name recognition but stressed there would be no political risk if conservatives could get their act together and knock him off.
Could a Graham defeat offer Democrats an opening? Bahahahah, they both simultaneously scoffed (though Piscatella was audibly louder).
This is SOUTH CAROLINA. (The addition of ‘You Dumb Yankee’ was assumed in that sentence, if not actually spoken by either man.)
Then Piscatella took the opportunity to bash the national press for “continuing to malign [Rep.] Mark Sanford” and segued into a joke about Elizabeth Colbert Busch that I didn’t completely understand.
More hearty chuckles all around.
Time for me to redirect this conversation to my second objective.
Catanese: What did you think of the Rand Paul-Chris Christie spat? They were beating each other up.
Piscatella: Still are.
Catanese: I know Rand Paul was down here a month ago. Do you guys have an opinion on who got the better of that?
Piscatella: I think you’re going to find more support here for Rand Paul than you will for Chris Christie, by a vast majority.
Catanese: Here meaning Goose Creek, or South Carolina?
Piscatella: In the Low Country. And I think perhaps in the upstate as well. South Carolina is a very divided state. But if you’ve got the Low Country and you’ve got what we call the upstate-Greenville area — they are very strong conservatives up there. . . If you’ve got those two factions together, the rest of the state can’t beat us.
Catanese: But why Rand P . . .
Piscatella: Interrupts .. . The problem has always been the Low Country doesn’t necessarily always agree with the upstate.
Piscatella then diverted into another detailed explanation about the Sanford race, a contest in which he had obvious interest in and unfortunately I did not.
Plus, it was getting close to the 9 a.m. hour when they’d convene the meeting and I’d be forced to march back to the press table.
Suddenly, a younger man showed up and interjected, at least steering the conversation back to one of my interests: Nancy Mace.
The man later told me he was Billy Hall, the treasurer of the GOP Liberty Caucus and a fan of Ron, Rand and (presumably) Nancy Mace.
Hall: You excited about Nancy jumping in?
Piscatella: Ah, well, really, we gotta come down to one.
Hall: I know you’re a Lindsey fan. (Chuckle)
Piscatella: Yeah, I know. We got to get it to one. We got to get behind one and we got to push like hell.
Hall: Absolutely. Totally agree with you . . . With multiple candidates, if those guys can take enough votes away from Lindsey and pushes him to a runoff, I think that will be like a huge defeat.
Catanese: (Now I’m interjecting) Wait, there’s a runoff rule in South Carolina?
Piscatella: (Turning to me) Yep. Gotta get 50 percent plus 1 . . . He’s not gonna get it this time, I don’t think. Well, we know the upstate hates him.
Hall: Yeah.
Piscatella: It’s up to us, really.
Hall: This is actually his best territory down here.
Piscatella: It is. It’s up to us. If we could put together the same group we put together for Mark, we could take his ass out.
Hall: Oh yeah, absolutely.
Piscatella: Question for ya, why don’t you guys get Cash to a meeting?
Hall: What?
Piscatella: Get Cash to a meeting. I don’t know this guy.
Cash is Richard Cash — the 53-year-old businessman who had previously announced his candidacy against Graham. The ensuing minutes involved Piscatella expressing how he wanted to meet Cash and get a feel for him and Hall offering that he didn’t think Cash was going to be their strongest contender. Hall was obviously on team Mace, Ron and Rand.
This was a clue for me to transition away from Piscatella and Stauffer — (two fine and gracious gentlemen) — and strike up a conversation with Hall.
Hall immediately cautioned that he was only TREASURER of the Liberty Caucus — a time-tested flare of potential sources when they don’t want to be quoted as some type of authority figure. (I don’t speak for HIM or THEM, is common phrasing.) Well, obviously but also irrelevant for my purposes.
Time to accelerate this conversation. This one should be a lay-up of a quote.
He’s in the LIBERTY CAUCUS for God sakes!
Catanese: What did you think of the Rand Paul-Chris Christie spat?
Hall: I’m always going to be pulling for Rand, so .. . (laughs)
Eh, underwhelming. And apparently he was too, since he pivoted back to the topic of the day.
Hall: We’re excited that we have Nancy in the race. She’s a good liberty candidate, constitutional candidate.
When I pressed him for more details about Mace that the common man might not know, Hall essentially recited her Wikipedia bio, which was included in my “research” reading the night before.
But he also told me that it was Mace who helped coordinate many of the South Carolina endorsements for Rep. Ron Paul’s 2012 presidential run, an aspect Mace herself was not interested in talking to me about later.
Catanese: She was a Ron Paul person?
Hall: She was.
Catanese: She’s probably going to be with Rand Paul this next time?
Hall: Yes.
Catanese: And is that a strong organization that you have down here? I know sometimes with the national security stuff in South Carolina .. . Ron Paul didn’t do very well in South Carolina.
Hall: Well, you’re correct there. I think in the Low Country, we do have a large military presence, this is probably Lindsey’s strongest area. If you go in the upstate, it’s a lot more conservative.
At this point, the GOP county chairman called the meeting to order, scurrying people to their seats for the pledge, the prayer and the Republican creed. But as I continued to scan the room for interviews (victims), one man immediately caught my eye.
He was working the room like a pol, greeting every person seated at a table with a handshake, hug or backslap. Dressed in a dark pinstripe suit and a bright white shirt with no tie, he made his way toward me. This guy seemed like he’d be compelling. Plus, he was a black man, which — let’s be frank — is usually a rarity at Republican events.
I sheepishly begin the conversation by asking him — in a way that’s half assuming — “Are youan elected official here?
Yep.
State Rep. Samuel Rivers Jr.
Boom, let’s do this.
Catanese: Are you here to support Nancy Mace’s bid?
Rivers: Let’s talk about something . . . at another time.
He’s got a smile on his face, but it’s one of those half-fake smiles a nice girl might give a guy when she’s really not interested.
Catanese: But you’re here?!
This is me pressing.
I pride myself on follow-ups. Humor me.
Rivers: I’m always here.
Catanese: Oh, you’re always here.
An older woman with some type of credential in the party walks by and vouches: “He comes here every month.”
Fine then. Onward.
Catanese: What do you think of Senator Graham?
Rivers: What do I think of him?
Catanese: Yeah.
Rivers: Seriously?
Like this is an ODD question?
(Or maybe he was just buying time to perfectly calibrate his answer.)
Catanese: Yeah.
Rivers: I think he’s a hard worker. He delivers for his constituency.
Catanese: Gotcha. But that doesn’t mean you’ll automatically support him, I guess? Is that my assumption here?
Awkward pause. This poor guy is so not interested in this anymore.
Catanese: You’re being very cautious.
Rivers: Hahahahahahahaha.
Catanese: You don’t want to weigh in on this, I guess.
Surrender.
Rivers: Not at this moment, not at this moment.
Pivot to objective two. It’s national. He’s further removed from it. Chris Christie’s certainly not going to come down and rap him for some comment he made to me.
Catanese: Can I ask you about the Rand Paul-Chris Christie thing? What did you think about the back and forth? I’m just asking Republicans in general.
Rivers: I really didn’t get into it. Honestly, I haven’t been watching the television or listening to the news lately because I’ve been so busy.
What? C’mon. I don’t know what’s worse — being a state lawmaker admitting he doesn’t follow the news or lying about it.
Ok, that’s what we call a good ole-fashioned bust.
Where’s that woman who walked by and rescued Rivers, I immediately thought. My eyes dart around the room as the breakfast line of Republicans builds. ($6 for all the eggs, bacon, grits and toast ya can eat!)
I spot her in a conversation with another woman — but whatever, she seemed chatty and I’m quote hunting here so I brazenly interrupt.
She’s Peggy Bangle, vice chair of the Dorchester County Republicans and president of the GOP women’s club. I begin with Graham vs. Mace. Leaving it wide open for her.
Bangle: It’ll be interesting, we’ll just leave it at that.
Pro-tip: That’s pretty much the worse thing any source can say to a reporter.
Now I’m laughing.
Catanese: Why are people so afraid to talk about this?
Bangle: Well, first of all, I’m president of a club so I can’t endorse anybody.
Who asked for an endorsement? My bar has been considerably lowered. General descriptions would be stellar.
Bangle: It’s not my place in a primary to endorse.
Catanese: Ok, do you have any feelings about either of them either way without endorsing, what their strengths or weaknesses are?
Bangle: Lindsey’s good on Benghazi, Nancy’s a strong woman.
Catanese: Do you think that’ll matter to primary voters, that she’s a female?
Bangle: It won’t to me because I think they’re gonna be other people in the primary also. I think Lee Bright’s going to get in it.
Catanese: That makes it tougher to beat Lindsey overall?
Bangle: Yeah . . . it’s whose got the most money and the most power, that’s the unfortunate thing about politics, unless the grassroots really get out there and do their thing.
Catanese: It’s happened before. (Me, suddenly transforming into a populist? Or just rooting for a fight? Who knows.)
Catanese: Do you think there’s discontent with Lindsey Graham at all in this area?
Bangle: In a word, yes.
Catanese: Over . . . (pushing here)?
Bangle: I’d say immigration would come to mind first. And he’s wishy washy at times.
Catanese: Can I ask you about the Rand Paul-Chris Christie spat since that’s not in your area? (Gawd, I’m just asking for mercy now. Pitiful as I review the tape.)
Bangle: Stupid.
Catanese: Have you met either one?
Bangle: I’ve met Rand Paul, he’s very nice. I haven’t met Chris Christie because he hasn’t been down here. But they both got strengths. And just like any politician they’re politicians.
No argument with Ms. Bangle there.
But then, she drops this doozy . . . (which would make a great kicker quote for any of the 243 Google alerts I received over the past week on the Christie-Paul facedown) .. .
Bangle: I don’t see either one of them being president at this time, but that’s another thing.
Catanese: Oh really?
I’m intrigued, she sees it in my eye and then retreats slightly.
Bangle: That’s just MY opinion.
Why, of course Ms. Bangle.
Catanese: Is there somebody that sticks out to you for the Republican nomination?
Bangle: Like the last time? No. It’s just a bunch of people running . . . No one’s willing to stand up and say what they believe firmly and stick to the same message the whole time.
Catanese: Rubio?
Bangle: I like Rubio, I’ve met him. I met Ted Cruz, I like him.
Note to Team Rubio: This woman just voluntarily dropped Cruz’s name in the same sentence with “The Savior of the GOP.”
Then, Bangle gave the standard — and completely feasible out — It’s too early to be talking about this nonsense, it’s 3 years away. Yet there’s some irony in that statement given that she’s already met Rand, Rubio and Cruz.
Bangle’s been gracious and useful and so I let her off the hook — though she reminds me — as nervous activists often do at these things — that since she’s a vice chair, she DOES NOT ENDORSE.
So my next stop, naturally, is off to the head ringmaster who also CAN NOT/WILL NOT ENDORSE: The chairman of the Berkeley County GOP, Terry Hardesty.
Hardesty is at the front of the room and is seated by his lonesome, presumably to wolf down a hearty six-dollar plate of eggs, toast, grits and bacon. I pull and park on the stage at the side of him to achieve eye-level contact. I want to know if Mace asked Hardesty to hold this event or if the county GOP encouraged it (that’d be a pot stirrer!).
Hardesty: She called me and asked me if she could have some time to make an announcement.
A long pause ensues. I’m trying to gauge if Hardesty just needs time to chew the food he is swiftly shoving in his mouth or if he’s just completed his thought. Nine seconds went by. Doesn’t seem like much — but nine seconds of silence is an eternity in an interview — especially if it’s televised!
“And that was it?,” I rejoin.
Hardesty: Huh?
Catanese: And that was it? (I chuckle at the look on his face.)
Hardesty: If you noticed, we’ve already had announcements for anyone who wanted to make an announcement. We’re pretty open here.
Catanese: Right, right, right.
But Mace hadn’t spoken yet — and she was presumably the main event. Was he suggesting it wasn’t going down?
Hardesty: I’m not going to speak for her.
Nevermind that in 15 minutes, Hardesty would introduce Mace’s Senate campaign speech and say he was “pretty proud” to have the chance to be doing so.
Hardesty’s giggling now though — a subtle acknowledgement that he knew where I was attempting to go with his association with her kick-off at all.
Catanese: You’re a county chair, so you’re not weighing in on the race at all?
Hardesty: My job is to find good strong conservative Republicans to run every race I can find.
Catanese: So is this an example of that to find her to run in this race?
Hardesty: Uh, I didn’t recruit her . . . I’m not unhappy with any incumbent being challenged. I think that’s healthy.
Coming pretty close to showing his cards for a county party chairman that DOES NOT/WILL NOT ENDORSE.
Catanese: Really? Some people think primaries are destructive.
Hardesty: Why?
Catanese: Because you fight and then start wasting money on each other and don’t focus on unity and beating the Democrat.
I’m breaking a cardinal rule of the interviewer-interviewee relationship here by answering the question he posed. #Fail.
Catanese: Do you have any problems with Lindsey Graham in general?
Hardesty: Aw, there’s positions he’s taken that I don’t care for.
Catanese: Let me guess, immigration.
Hardesty: That’s top of the list. And it wouldn’t be a secret because I’ve told Lindsey this right to his face.
Respect.
Catanese: And what does he say when he’s confronted with that? I’m sure you’re not the first or the only one. What does he say back?
Hardesty: He usually comes up with ‘This is a very complicated issues but I understand your position but we’ve got to come to an agreement. .. ” I hate to be impolite but I’ve got to eat so I’ve got to get back up and run the meeting. If you don’t mind me chewing and talking . . .
Catanese: No, I don’t mind.
Now I’m slightly embarrassed.
Catanese: I don’t want to make ya choke. I’m just getting hungry watching ya.
Hardesty: Good. Spend $6. We need the money.
For several minutes, we continue to chat about Mace’s credentials, the hurdles any Graham challenger faces and then drop the ultimate question: Can he be beaten?
Which, in Washington, the answer is the exact opposite of the one he’s about to deliver.
Hardesty: Have you been a South Carolina Republican convention in the last six or eight years?
Catanese: I have not, that’s why I’m asking. (A little snide, but I laugh. It’s all good.)
Then a woman, who seated herself next to Hardesty at some point and time since our conversation started, intervenes.
She’s Nancy Corbin, a Berkeley County Republican.
Corbin: Terry can’t say it but I can. Yes, he can be beaten. The grassroots people are not happy. You go to a convention, when Lindsey Graham comes out, he gets a nice little . . . what’s you’re supposed to do. Any other candidate comes out and they are yelling and cheering.
This is an opportune time to note that this is exactly why Graham’s team put the kibosh on a convention style nomination — and made sure the larger, less ideological primary electorate would decide his fate. Convention participants are considered the base of the base.
Corbin: If we had the Lindsey Graham that sat up there during the Clinton hearings, we’d all be very happy. Or if we always had the Lindsey Graham that’s strong on the military, we’d be happy, but he’s too wishy-washy.
There’s that phrase again: Wishy-washy. Peggy Bangle had describe Graham the same way.
Then, the dagger from Corbin:
Corbin: He’s just not a dependable conservative . . .It’s time for a change.
Like it was written for an ad. But she really said it, while nibbling on her own $6-dollar breakfast!
Catanese: What did you think about the Rand Paul-Chris Christie spat? That was a big fight this week on national security and spending.
Hardesty: I think it’s a healthy debate. People ought to pay attention.
Catanese: Do you think one of them is winning it?
Hardesty: The weaker Chris Christie looks on security in this country, the more he looks like a Democrat to me.
But wait, it was Christie who was strongly insinuating that Paul is weak in the knees on national security?
Hardesty opps out. He says he hadn’t been paying much attention to it.
Where’s my girl Nancy? She wouldn’t pull that. I grab her name and attention.
Catanese: I just was asking him about the Chris Christie-Rand Paul spat about national security and spending. I was wondering if you had an opinion.
Corbin: I’m not a Chris Christie fan and I’m not totally a Rand Paul fan .. . (laughing) . . .One is one way and one is too far the other way, I’m sitting here in between the two.
Sounds like a Rubio small dollar donor.
It was time for the main event of Nancy Mace. Hardesty did the honors of the intro and Mace spoke for about 14 minutes and then took questions from a small group of reporters, which you can read all about in my piece for The Daily Beast.
I sought two more interviews as people streamed out of the Legion Post. Firing off quick one-word answers as he walked in the opposite direction, one man made it quite clear he wasn’t interested in being a contestant in my game.
But then I spotted a final gold mine.
As I noted at the start, you rarely can go wrong approaching a table of old guys when you’re quote hunting.
The only thing that can make it better is a loud, mouthy t-shirt.
Bill Thomas was lingering around to meet Mace and shake her hand — but he was also wearing a gray shirt that read “I’m the God fearing, gun toting, flag waving conservative Liberals warned you about!”
It would’ve been close to malpractice if I didn’t approach him. He thinks its time for a change, pretty much everywhere.
Thomas: Lindsey’s just not a conservative.
Catanese: On anything? Are there any particulars?
Thomas: His amnesty policy is the first thing that grabs us but I just don’t feel like he’s able to stand up for . . . I think he’s too progressive.
Catanese: Do you think that it’ll be tough to beat him? With three candidates dividing the vote?
Thomas: I hope that we can get behind one and bring him or her to victory. We’re working on it.
Catanese: Any reason you’d support Mace over the others?
Thomas: I don’t know, I just met her.
Catanese: Do you have an opinion on the Rand Paul-Chris Christie back and forth?
Thomas: I heard somebody say that Chris Christie was wanting to run for president as a Democrat.
That’s an El Rushbo reference!
Catanese: So you’re not on Chris Christie’s side there?
Thomas: No. Rand is . . . I was a Ron Paul fan. Rand’s kind of picking that up, not quite as much as Ron was . . .
Read: Rand isn’t even conservative enough for this guy.
But . . .
Thomas: But I like Rand Paul.
Catanese: You think you could support him?
Thomas: Yes.
The smart people — i.e. folks who have worked or currently work in D.C. — tell me Lindsey Graham can’t be beaten and that Rand Paul can’t win South Carolina.
But if either of those things occur, I’ll certainly recall my morning with John, Tony, Billy, Peggy, Terry, Nancy and Bill.
Follow Dave’s blog at TheRun2016.com
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